Difference Between Civil engineering and Architecture
Civil engineering vs Architecture
You may already have an idea on the process of designing and the construction of buildings, mansions, and other edifice; and you know for a fact that the job requires professionals like Architects and Civil Engineers.
It is very likely that your idea of their work is vague. Maybe when you think of architects, you would only visualize a person making drawings on large sheets of paper and when you think of civil engineers, you imagine someone with a hardhat analyzing on the field of construction, yelling instructions to workers involved in the assembly. If you were thinking along these lines, though stereotypical, you are to some extent accurate.
However, there are marked differences between the fields of architecture and civil engineering. In fact, the two practices have well-defined responsibilities that make them distinct from each other.
Architecture is mainly a practice of designing structures with aesthetics and spatial functionality in mind. Architects may have the basic to advanced knowledge of structural mechanics but their primary focus is always, first and foremost, the creativity, look and feel, and functionality of the design. Structural vision starts in the field of architecture.
Civil engineering, also referred as structural engineering, specializes in the structural elements of systems, ensuring that facilities can withstand normal and extreme loading conditions. Civil engineers work closely with architects and they are responsible for making the vision of architects into a realization. Civil engineering deliberates on the physics involved in the construction process of the architect’s design.
Civil engineering may also tackle the particulars of design but the practice is often not concerned with the aesthetics and intended function of structures. Civil Engineers will rather focus on innovative ways to make the design work. When they see something in the design as impractical, they can suggest a design modification from the ones involved in the architectural department.
A good engineer-architect relationship is vital to have a more efficient, high quality project result.
A good civil engineer will always give the best efforts to make the design into a reality. A good architect, on the other hand, will always consider the practicality of the design so it can be built with less cost and at a faster rate. They may overlap each other’s work but in the ideal world, each has its own expertise to be esteemed.
Summary:
1. Architecture is more into the creativity of designs. Civil engineering focus on innovation to realize that design.
2. Architecture involves the design of structures with the focus on aesthetics and functionality. Civil engineering will not normally care about those things; Civil Engineers will rather deliberate and plan the methodology to construct the design.
3. Architecture initiates the project through architects’ drafts. Civil engineering involves studying drafts and examining the practicality of the design; civil engineers ensure that the design can withstand normal and extreme loading conditions.
4. Architects will need engineers help to make their designs work. Civil engineers will be guided by the architectsΓβ outlines and dimensions.
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it is too much knowledgeable site i like it
I don’t think that Civil Engineers are the boss of construction. Architects have 5 years of study and 2 yrs. minimum of apprenticeship. We have the necessary training to lead the technical people. To others which I did not reply, we have plumbing subject. We have these utilitarian subjects so that we cannot be mislead by other professions, but we don’t sign the engineering plans because it is entitled engineering plans. Even the engineers of today and the oldies, they cannot even draw it on plans, they even hire architecture graduates and draft it to them, simple reason they just want to compute. There are many low cost housing here in the Philippines. It is sturdy but why do informal settlers do not live on it. It is because it is not planned efficiently, they were drafted by civil engineers. They did not study on how they will live, the security, transportation, health care, education, jobs, etc. So you see the difference, we have designs from the toilet up to hospitals, airports, communities, shopping centers, mass housing, towers, etc.. It is a separate profession. Please take note of this: do you have a project and estimate when you do not have a plan.
Yes no doubt. I say, stick to your rulers, pens and paper and we stick to ours.
Problem now is that more and more architects are trying to do small scale contracting i.e. project construction/management and implementation on small scale construction. I see it as job mismatch. They weren’t even told how to orient material fibers against loads like earth, they don”t know what concrete mix proportion to use for a 3ksi compressive rating. when a beam or column can’t be fully poured, do they know where to cut the concrete pour? do they know where to route electrical wires and plumbing inside columns and beams for maximum safety and operational efficiency? No. there is so much more on what they don’t know on construction methodology techniques to which an engineer’s judgement can only suffice. I say leave the construction implementation to engineers and the drawings to architects. this is to protect each profession and public safety.
how could be possible to plan without knowing the strength of material,quality of material, types of cement,types of loading etc hence its difficult to architect to plan.
yes u are right . in my according civil engineer can do drawing , design, load analysis and contect with physical work means allrounder. But a architech have only knowledge of drawing.
Measn its a branch of civil engineer. but a civil engineers have a all field knowledge.
Disagree….drafting a design is also a complex thing to implement. Not all architects have the same level of understanding or intellectual capacity, or passion, or vision for design…so it’s not really appropriate to generalize everything. Just shake hands and start building together!
Lead?, This is the problem with you Arch, You are trying hard to as to be the “Boss” in construction as if you have the knowledge or intellect to do it. Each engineering profession has its role in design and construction so don’t try to be above them. Just stick to drawing and drafting which you specialize in, The drawing will remain as a drawing if not for the engineers, the clients pay for what they can use, in shelter the house itself, they cannot live in a sheet of paper. The drawing as it is serves as a guide but that doesn’t mean it is more important than constructing it which is more difficult in “sense”. Take for example Da Vinci’s (more of an artist like in your profession but is knowledgeable to scientific ideas since he is multi talented) helicopter idea, He drawed the plan but did it materialize?, Everything on earth is governed by science it doesn’t mean that when you draw a thing it can be build as it is, it needs computation to make it work which is done by the engineers so take your drawing and frame it as if it is a painting if you can’t understand that FACT.- Unfortunately, due to weight constrictions, modern scientists do not believe da Vinciβs invention would have been able to take flight.Source:http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/aerial-screw.aspx
I think the CE’s should respect the Architecture profession since we have done our best to be very professional in our dealings with them.It’s not that CE’s are not good enough to do architectural plans but it is because the practice of Architecture is a privilege not a right .Architects can also do structural plans and we have their subjects up to Ultimate Strength Design but we never venture into that field because we RESPECT their specialization.They don’t have subjects concerning the FIRE CODE (RA9514), BUILDING CODE (PD 1096) and several other important college subjects which are necessary to safeguard the interest and safety of the public in terms of design.Whenever I have a small residential project,I would never forget to hire or recommend to the Owner to get a Civil/Structural Engineer to design the structural systems of the house.I thoroughly believe it is less expensive for the Owner to hire the necessary professionals for each field of specialization because he will save in the long run.It is like seeing the future implications of the project at least ten years ahead of time.The owner could save thousands even millions of pesos of back jobs if they truly understand the value of each professional,the Architects for the Architectural plans,the Interior Designers for the Interior of the house,the Civil Engineers for the Structural Designs,the Electrical Engineers for the Electrical Plans,the Mechanical Engineers for the Mechanical Plans,the Sanitary Engineers/Master Plumbers for the Plumbing/Sanitation Design of the building.All professions need to earn a living based on their SPECIALIZATIONS not just a single profession enjoying the privilege of all.We are all allied professionals to make our Nation a better place to live. May God bless us all with more projects and clients π
I want to clear that , civil engg. is a hole term but archi.. is only single part of civil engi…
Architects can do Structural Design? What a joke. If I am the client i would never trust an Architect to do structural design for my building. Some architects pretend to know everything, Structural design is not an easy task it requires broad knowledge in physics and mathematics especially if a structure requires dynamic analysis. Architects has a very little knowledge in structural designing some of them don’t even know the locations of maximum moments, maximum punching shears and where make construction joints and expansion joints. If an architect can do seismic analysis correctly maybe I will trust an Architect to do structural design.
So CE’s can design helicopters? LOL
Ohh Mrs arki architect can do field survey like road dame canal water supply , city survey ,levelling LOL LOL ha ha hi hi hi
can Civil engr. design hospital,corporate office, funeral homes, airport.look first the western country architect is the principal of consultant in vertical buildings.How can you design a complex building without hiring architects.maybe you hired architectural draftman to draw your building.
I am an Architect & I love my work. I am passionate about it. I don’t cross anybody’s path, & I respect everyone’s idea on the topic. The bottom line is this: put your words into actions. If you think you can design, then so be it. let society judge us.
from a-z, from nature to manade, from 0 to infinity, all around you is architecture….
Dear students, stop comparing the two professions the real boss is the project owner. During the design and development of a projects (large scale projects) every decisions made are discussed between architects and civil engineers together covering every aspects specially in meeting the deadline given by the Boss (OWNER!!). You will experience this when you practice civil engineering or architecture in the real world. The best architecs or civil engineer never compare themselves to each other cause they know where they stand. Note: I’m a practicing structural engineer, reading on some comments above makes me think you are a college students on its first year living in your own fantasies as an architect or civil engineer. Also, there will be time that you will work to a less competitive architects/civil engineers makes you think “that is why his/she’s just an architect/civil engineer” becuase in our world you will soon meet your match. Don’t Boast out, its an act of ignorance.
To RamChander, My Great grand father with respect sir but you should learn to look back where you came, What were you before you became a structural engineer. We are discussing here not the large scale projects but the simple ones as say to design a simple two to three storey residential houses. May I ask if you do know how to use Autocadd? I think you don’t coz if you do you’ll have the experience what they were talking about. It is computer-aided nowadays, What others don’t understand in engineering is that you cannot simply learn by reading facts like in story books or general facts, engineering means applied science and you should know how to compute after you learn the facts. It’s not like the minimums, say minimum height for floor to ceiling is 2.4m, (you learned the “fact’).. An ordinary civil engineer can do architectural planning for this small scale projects, it is stated in our CE Law. For Large Projects it is much advantageous for the owner to hire the specialists in each field to save both on time and money,
Do you think AutoCAD will do everything for you? LOL
Hey Douche, i am a civil engineer and i know more computer applications than you know and i can challenge you on that. Revit Arch, Revit Structure, Autocad structural detailing, NavisWork, Etabs, Staad-pro, SAFE, SAP, 3ds Max, Maya, Civil 3d and don’t even talk about Autocad, Everyone knows it.
Nowadays architects are only required for multistory buildings and the fact is that a civil engineer can draw a good plan but an architect can never construct a building.
Good Boy Mr. Ram! You hit it right on the Nail Head! The abv comments sounded like a class room tit for tat! First let me tell you young’ns Architects are valuable not only to Design/Drawing. But are also important for the Engineer to understand the design, then both professions, advise the Clientele of assessing the project. Cost Effectively and :
1. Functional: Thought it may be the simplest to conceive and attribute to good design. But it’s
often the hardest to achieve.
2. Social Benefits: Like it or not, All Architecture and Engineering is public Display! Architects
& Engineers, both have the responsibility to look both within and beyond
the walls of the building project, to see what they can do to help!
3. Endurance: Buildings need both Ergonomic, and Structural aesthetic
longevity. Both must innovate, and don’t out date the last coat
of paint! and LASTLY MY YOUNG ‘INS
4. Affordable: This is one of the hardest for Both fields.
So stop the Tit for Tat Boys and Girls and get the education, and the field experience first before you ramble off the pros and cons of what?
well you are right mr. autocad
Hey Mrs Arki you can design and drawing only computer appli. But we can (civil engg.) also design and drawing on the paper and computer.
Your branch architect is origin from civil engg. branch.
we are whole part. but u are only part us.
we have more knowledge than u.
Silly, architects and engineers.. dont you know?
Nothing gets drawn and nothing gets built untill WE the accountants approve the project.
Were the ones running the show!
don’t forget it!
…..lol
thinkless guy we are discuss here only knowledge wise
good
simple , Architect design spaces which client uses .
civil engineers do the structure
electrical engineer do the electrification
HVAC Does Heating Ventillation and air conditioning
the list goes on
All these are to support the space designed by architects . when he changes his design all the others needs to change theirs . Not the other way around
So architect is the team leader
Great post, I my opinion civil engineering is the most important branch of engineering. I can see some giant companies like Vela VKE are constructing great buildings and carrying out versatile projects. Their experience is highly regarded and they are doing a marvellous work in the country and the surrounding region.
I am student of civil engineering studying 2nd year. I dont know the difference between civil engg. and arch. But now I got a clear idea about civil engineering and architecture after visiting this site. Thanks for your brief explanation.
Which one pay more money?
the architect gets the pay, of course.. the engineers will just be needed by the architects.
As you have said architects will always need the engineer but certainly engineers can do it without them with only fallback of course of the “arts”, About monetary issues depends upon the project, sad to say but the architects have the upper hand but the engineers has the greater responsibility of the structures, “with great power (intellect) comes great responsibility, but this world does not recognize that and agreeing on previous comments the average joe cannot appreciate the works of the engineers for they are utmost unseen, and to add the recognition goes to the architects, very sad. But of course to those who understand certainly knows what is involve to the structures that is why the prestige goes to the engineers. Architects are “sexy” but engineers are “hard ‘n hot”,;->which one do you prefer?
What clients really pay for is the DESIGN CONCEPT of the building. It is the most expensive item in the architect’s professional fee; the rest are for the mundane stuff such as the cost of production, reproduction, computation, etc.
gaya the answer is awesome…….Civil engineer can just work on what he use to study…he is Immobile..
a arch can pay more money but he also earn more money ………..
think it …………….
and reply………….
superb, i luv this answer
There is more to civil engineering than what the author is trying to say, He is merely referring the civil engineering to structural engineering. True but not complete since it is the main specialization of civil engineering but entirely on focuses on the integrity of structures, Civil engineering is the widest discipline among engineering since it involves the design to the better living of humans(civilians)in general, 5 major specialization: structural, construction, geotechnical, water resource, transportation. In fact it is the backbone of civilization, Civil engineers construct not only buildings but also dams, bridges, tunnels, etc., Here in the Philippines there is a conflict between architecture and civil engineering since from others point of view is the same as the author of this forum. From description Architecture is more of an art and not science since science involves physics. Beauty and functionality planning rests as an art therefore the course leading to the degree of todays architecture must be Bachelor of Arts in Architecture. There are some arguments that must be addressed since the word “Architecture” has mislead us. From greek definition Architecture means Chief Builder, and the issue is who is the true builder between an architect and a civil engineer? Is it the one that has the concern for the beauty and functionality or the the one that focuses on the realization on how to make things? certainly the latter since by practice todays Architect conceives and envisions the design most accurate term of “planner”. Therefore as a true builder does not stop at drafting proposed designs but on how you try to make it happen “build” to build is different as to “design”. The term civil engineer sprouts as to differentiate the service provided for civilians and the military. The term “engineer” is defined as the one who makes (build) just anything for the use of man therefore a civil engineer is an architect (chief builder) by definition by itself, so by profession the two are alike contrasting only by who has the talent on art and the one with the science. Until a clear path for this two profession is drafted there will be a conflict. Scope of architecture includes structural conceptualization (columns/beams location, spans, etc.)according to the author, we may have an overlap of scope here since the integrity or behavior of structure imposed with loads will rely upon the structural conceptualization or simply pre-structural design and with the the basic training who do you think is more credible? art has nothing to do with that the only reason todays architects assumes that task is that it would not interfere of there envisioned “dreamed” design. Why must the civil engineers do the structural conceptualization? because it simply involves science since the buildings’ structural members functionality will rely on it. With due respect to todays Architect they are needed for there sense of art nothing else but that in fact is still questionable from the qoutation “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, they say that a Civil engineers’ design is somewhat a “box” but looking at today’s trends it is the design of boxed structures, simplicity as beauty itself. A work (design) done by an architect is fascinating, a work done by a civil engineer is a marvel. 1. Parthenon, Sydney’s opera house, High Rise buildings is a work by an architect or a civil engineer? Answer: Both 2. Egypt’s Pyramids, Great wall of China, Golden gate Bridge, Eiffel Tower? Civil Engineer . Not to be set aside the hands that render this works the masons, carpenters, plumbers, they are the true builders for without them the drawing and computations will remain as it is.
Conclusion: Any structure that is intended for human habitation or consurtium (live, assemblies) should/can be done by both professional but neither can do it alone and is for the benefit of all if they would be as a team.
Proposal to Civil Engineers:
1. Create a sub discipine/specialization of Civil Engineering as “Architectural Engineer” that would focus on the design of structures for human habitation, where qualified are those with sense of art and computation analysis as well. A true “builder” does not only require the arts but also the mathematical analysis since science governs the processes of this world.
Proposal to Architects:
1. Make it a program after bachelors degree or make it major subject the strength of materials, structural theory, and structural design so it would be possible to come up for an acceptable structural conceptualizations and computations.
Possible? yeap but would require additional units to the degree say additional 2 yrs after bachelor’s degree. Thus for each of this profession to do this will only overlap their functions and further conflict may arise.
Solution:
1. Make it legal for both to plan/design floor plans of human habitation structures. Reason why a civil engineer should be permitted to do this, An engineer may not focus on beauty of his work but certainly has extensive knowledge to adapt/create new technologies for this type of structures and it would be possible for them to take it to new heights the modern home design which is their main function to innovate designs.
2. Make it an exclusive right of an architect to prepare, plan, draw facades, detailing of any structure, and should be a separate sheet of architectural documents, the rest as mentioned above can be done by both and let clients (owner) choose the professional (architect or civil engineer).
3. Make it a requirement for civil engineers to have a masters degree in structural engineering when designing human habitation structures exceeding 7 storeys (25m) provided non-irregular types.
4. Architects should not be so concentrated to building structures they must explore automobile designs,etc. for their vision of art what is pleasing to the eye is greatly appreciated.
FYI Anonymous:
BS Architecture already has strength of materials, structural theory, and structural design in its curriculum.
For a civil engineer to be qualified to design a building (that is, design architectural stuff) he has to another take 4-5 years worth of subjects. Not practical, huh?
I am a professional architect and I have had ‘regretful’ clients who came to me asking to ‘improve’ the sorry plans/designs done by engineers they hired (thinking they can save money if they hire them instead of an architect). Believe me, it was messy. Although, I have met some civil engineers who are quite capable of designing buildings (well, due to years of experience as building contractors), I still think civil engineers in general should not sign architectural plans because they do not have enough undergrad and sub-professional preparation for architectural practice.
There’s more to human habitation than aesthetics and structural integrity of buildings. In architecture, we study environmental psychology, place-making, cultural dimensions (to name few topics) so that the social, environmental and psychological needs of man are addressed when we design buildings or spaces.
BS Architecture already has strength of materials, structural theory, and structural design in its curriculum.
*THIS IS ANOTHER PROBLEM, YOU ARE TRYING TO DO THE ENGINEER’S JOB, i WILL QOUTE ONE ARCH. SAYING FROM ANOTHER SITE CALLING OTHER PROFESSIONALS TO JOIN THEM AGAINST THE CE’S ON A CERTAIN BILL THAT ALLOWS THE REVISION OF THE CE LAW WHICH WAS DELIBERATELY TRASHED BY PASSING THE ARCHITECTURE ACT OF 2004,, AND THIS GLENN, WHY MR. GLENN ISN’T IT HERE IN RP ARCHITECTURE INCLUDES PLUMBING SUBJECTS? WHO IS THE ONE TRYING TO BE THE JACK OF ALL TRADES?
I still think civil engineers in general should not sign architectural plans because they do not have enough undergrad and sub-professional preparation for architectural practice. MAYBE FOR LARGE SPACE BLDGS. SAY MALLS, I’M SAYING IT IS OK TO ALLOW THEM IF IT IS JUST SIMPLE RESIDENTIAL /FACTORY BLDGS BUT WHY DOES THE ARCHITECTURE ACT OF 2004 DISALLOWED IT IN GENERAL.
Thereβs more to human habitation than aesthetics and structural integrity of buildings. In architecture, we study environmental psychology, place-making, cultural dimensions (to name few topics) so that the social, environmental and psychological needs of man are addressed when we design buildings or spaces. HEY, THATS THE JOB OF A PLANNER (URBAN AND ENVIRONMENTAL).
Please compare the subjects between a CE and an Arki in college and in the board exams.So you will know who does what in a professional way.
I’ve seen a lot of civil engineer – contractors doing buildings which are detrimental to the environment. So it only means there’s something wrong with the RP building code allowing CEs to sign “sorry plans” pretending to be equal with architects.
Question for
everybody will an civil engineer sign the
mechanical, electrical, electronics and plumbing
plans? Is he the jack of all trades. Absolutely not.
Before answering your question for everybody, glenn, let me ask you first. Have you seen these plans ‘ACTUALLY’ signed by architects?..i know you have..We have registered professionals to sign those, why not them? Why the architects?
So let me throw back your question: is the architect the actual jack of all trades? Absolutely NOT. Is there an actual jack of all trades? Absolutely NONE.
We all build and design to co-exist with each other’s profession. Dont try to be a cut above the rest.
escuse me!!!! civil is the most important study to develop this incredible india.. architectures just design but civil engineers work to bring up quality…………. in civil engineering, they study how strong they need to build the building , n how long it exists ….. there is a need of lot of civil engineersin many countries……. if u r an architecture, dont give negative speech about civil engineers………………………….. for yourinformatin, i m not an engineering student …. i m studing +2 in india
“Architect they are needed for there sense of art nothing else but that in fact is still questionable from the qoutation βbeauty is in the eye of the beholder”
This view is very myopic. Architecture is not merely about making beautiful buildings. FYI, an architect is responsible in making spaces habitable. And by habitable, the whole functionality or should I say the ‘effectiveness’ of the building or space. Habitability includes the issues of comfort, security, sense of belonging of the inhabitants among other things. Habitable is not only about making the inhabitants safe from the forces of nature. It is much more than that.
“An engineer may not focus on beauty of his work but certainly has extensive knowledge to adapt/create new technologies for this type of structures”
From this line, you are saying that engineers only care about making the structure. And I think thats the big difference between architects and engineers. Engineers’ mindset tend to stop at the structure itself — concerned about the methodologies in construction, concerned only if it will stand, last against the forces of nature or not. Architects on the contrary not only think about the structural integrity of the building but they also have its users on their minds as well.
Another FYI, strength of materials and structural analysis ARE major subjects in architecture. That is why for small buildings architects dont need structural engineers for computations because we DO have knowledge in actually constructing buildings.
I am an architect who loves engineers because as you have said, engineers can create methodologies in building construction, develop new technologies and the like. BUT I loathe engineers who belittle architecture and see it as nothing more that making pretty facades.
βArchitect they are needed for there sense of art nothing else but that in fact is still questionable from the qoutation βbeauty is in the eye of the beholderβ
This view is very myopic. Architecture is not merely about making beautiful buildings. FYI, an architect is responsible in making spaces habitable. And by habitable, the whole functionality or should I say the βeffectivenessβ of the building or space. Habitability includes the issues of comfort, security, sense of belonging of the inhabitants among other things. Habitable is not only about making the inhabitants safe from the forces of nature. It is much more than that. HABITABLE, FUNCTIONALITY AND EFFECTIVENESS IS DEPENDENT ON THE OPINION SAME AS “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.
βAn engineer may not focus on beauty of his work but certainly has extensive knowledge to adapt/create new technologies for this type of structuresβ
From this line, you are saying that engineers only care about making the structure. And I think thats the big difference between architects and engineers. Engineersβ mindset tend to stop at the structure itself β concerned about the methodologies in construction, concerned only if it will stand, last against the forces of nature or not. Architects on the contrary not only think about the structural integrity of the building but they also have its users on their minds as well. BUT THAT USER HAVE ALSO HIS/HER SENSE OF ART OR TASTE AND THAT MAY NOT CONFORM WITH YOURS.
Another FYI, strength of materials and structural analysis ARE major subjects in architecture. That is why for small buildings architects dont need structural engineers for computations because we DO have knowledge in actually constructing buildings. AGAIN, TRYING TO BE THE ENGINEER. PLEASE QOUTE MR. GLENN WHO IS TRYING TO BE THE “JACK”.MAJOR SUBJECT? C’MON,
I am an architect who loves engineers because as you have said, engineers can create methodologies in building construction, develop new technologies and the like. BUT I loathe engineers who belittle architecture and see it as nothing more that making pretty facades.
I FEEL YOUR FEELINGS BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FEELING OF THE OTHER. TELL THAT TO SOME OF YOUR FELLOW ARCH IN OTHER BLOGSITES WHO HAVE BELITTLED THE CIVIL ENGRS.Tell me how can the civil engineer adapt the new technologies if He will not be allowed to create building plans?, THAT’S WHY A CE QOUTED THIS ”
Make it legal for both to plan/design floor plans of human habitation structures.
Let me be a little more specific…
I moved to China about 7 years ago, I am 35 years old this year.
My annual income is between 1 to 1.2 million USD, I have a business in child education with 7 campuses, one logistic firm serving clients between main cities in my local province, one trading company as a main distributor for certain type of tea in the local province, and I am also a partner at a local wealth management/CPA firm in my province.
However, I am only considered alright comparing to the rich people here… those developer friends I have… they make too much money. But with a market of 1.5 billion people, there is a lot more land to be bought and houses to be built… so I want to start my own development firm
But I never invested in anything that I am not familiar with. So I am looking into a grad. program back in the states to gain the professional knowledge I need. I am currently looking at UCLA Master of Architecture and Urban Planning, but I only had 3.3 GPA from my undergrad. years back at UCLA, so I am more interested at Cal Poly Pomona Architecture, which is a 3years program that I can take my kids with me back in the states with me, do the grad. program and head back to China before they reach elementary school, and then start my second career before I turn 40.
In my case, I think Civil Engineering would be not very realistic because it would take me more than 3 years to complete the program, and it’s no way I am gonna even try to do all the calculation on my own… instead of simply hiring someone to do it, and plus here in China all the design plans must be submit to the local authority where they have a whole group of civil engineers to look at every detail of the plan before I get the permit to begin the construction process.
In your opinion, sir… which one would be more realistic to my goal, Arch or CE
thank you very much
WOW~
Well said, so can we say that Architects have the enough knowledge in structural analysis to design a building that is structurally reasonable to be built, and constructing a building less than 3 or 7 stories? but the design needs to be verified in specific calculation by Civil Engineers to ensure that the building will stand in case of an earthquake or other course of nature.
I mean, an Architect must understands the design of a building structure, or else the engineer cannot even begin building if the entire design does not make sense structurally…
But my question would be… in a growing economy such as China in 2011, there is about 70,000 land developers in the country, the people’s purchasing power are increasing rapidly, the real estate pricing is actually higher than in the states, the smallest local development is capable of making $25 million USD in 5 years if he does not make big mistake… if I would to enter into the real estate development field, which expertise, Architecture or Civil Engineering would be more helpful for me to be able to produce more attractive products in the market?
thank you
According to Wikipedia:
“Architecture (Latin architectura, from the Greek αΌΟΟΞΉΟΞΞΊΟΟΞ½ β arkhitekton, from αΌΟΟΞΉ- “chief” and ΟΞΞΊΟΟΞ½ “builder, carpenter, mason”) is both the process and product of planning, designing and construction. Architectural works, in the material form of buildings, are often perceived as cultural and political symbols and as works of art. Historical civilizations are often identified with their surviving architectural achievements”.
“Architecture” can mean:
“The ART and SCIENCE of design and erecting buildings and other physical structures.
A general term to describe buildings and other infrastructures.
A style and method of design and construction of buildings and other physical structures.
The practice of an architect, where architecture means to offer or render professional services in connection with the design and construction of a building, or group of buildings and the space within the site surrounding the buildings, that have as their principal purpose human occupancy or use.[1]
Design activity, from the macro-level (urban design, landscape architecture) to the micro-level (construction details and furniture).
The term “architecture” has been adopted to describe the activity of designing any kind of system, and is commonly used in describing information technology.
In relation to buildings, architecture has to do with the planning, designing and constructing form, space and ambience that reflect functional, technical, social, environmental, and aesthetic considerations. It requires the creative manipulation and coordination of material, technology, light and shadow. Architecture also encompasses the pragmatic aspects of realizing buildings and structures, including scheduling, cost estimating and construction administration. As documentation produced by architects, typically drawings, plans and technical specifications, architecture defines the structure and/or behavior of a building or any other kind of system that is to be or has been constructed”.
According to Wikipedia:
“In the “18TH CENTURY”, the term civil engineering was “COINED” to incorporate all things civilian as opposed to military engineering.[5] The “FIRST SELF-PROCLAIMED CIVIL ENGINEER” was John Smeaton who constructed the Eddystone Lighthouse.[4][6] In 1771 Smeaton and some of his colleagues formed the Smeatonian Society of Civil Engineers, a group of leaders of the profession who met informally over dinner. Though there was evidence of some technical meetings, it was little more than a social society”.
Hence:
During the ancient times there is no SPECIFIC TERM/NAME or DEFINITION of CIVIL ENGINEERING in LATIN and GREEK as compared to the term/name of ARCHITECTURE which was clearly derived from LATIN and GREEK word and defined as “CHIEF BUILDER”.
Moreover, in all history books pertaining to ancient structures, you will always see this kind of story line:
“In many ancient civilizations, such as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Architecture…”
For in my whole life i have never encountered this lines:
“In many ancient civilizations, such as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Civil Engineering…”
Which goes to show that in history the term “Architecture” precedes that of “Civil Engineering”, for in those early times there are no such term as Civil Engineering or Engineering.
If you still want to refute this please read some excerpts of the article below which may be the nearest Latin Definition of Engineering/Civil Engineering taken from this site: http://www.wierassociates.com/History%20Articles/HA06.htm
FROM INGENIUM TO ENGINEER
“The fields of art, economics, law, medicine, philosophy, and politics commonly look into their past. Why is this not as common in the field of engineering?
If you are like me (and you probably are somewhat like me since youβre almost certainly an engineer if you are reading this), we do have some things in common as Engineers. And those traits might actually explain why few of us take time to study history in the field of engineering. One trait: Engineers (by their very nature) are often too concerned in the present with making plans for the future, that we rarely think we have need or time to look into the past! But, as with personal genealogy, knowing from where we came can give us a better perspective on who we are and why we are like we are. Letβs look back.
Derived from the Latin word βIngeniumβ (meaning βnatural capacity or inventionβ) the word Engineer was PROBABLY born from another related word βengineβ. The early βengineβ¦erβ was largely concerned with making and operating engines of war (catapults, battering rams, etc.) and/or (especially if you were on the other side) devising defenses against these. The roots of βIngeniumβ and βEngineerβ mean βto do, to act, or to makeβ. While the aim of the scientist is βto knowβ; the aim of the engineer is βto doβ. What we do, as βdoersβ, is apply science to our work.
Early on, the engineerβs task was to contrive or to build something. (Some things never change). The engineerβs method of applying science was so good that engineering became known as βthe art of doing with one dollar that which any bungler can do with twoβ. However, from those early beginnings, subtle differences developed in the types of engineering and those differences have created changes.
Civil Engineering is well-recognized as the parent of all other forms of engineering. Soon came cousins (or to keep with the analogy, maybe that should be sons & daughters) named mechanical, chemical, electrical, etc. These were birthed at times when technology and the overall base of knowledge was ever expanding.
Our profession was perhaps first defined in 1828 when the Institution of Civil Engineers was chartered at London, England. Over time, the term βcivilβ engineer became restricted to those who were engaged with works of a static nature such as roads and tunnels, whereas those concerned primarily with the operation of moving machinery adopted the designation βmechanicalβ engineer. By 1928, the definition of engineering itself had been refined to be βthe professional and systematic application of science to the efficient utilization of natural resources to produce wealthβ.
Knowing this history, for what will civil engineers be known in 2028? Probably something still very related to its well-breed roots”.
In contrast, please read the article from the site http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/imhotep.htm
IMHOTEP, DOCTOR, ARCHITECT, HIGH PRIEST, SCRIBE AND VIZIER TO KING DJOSER
BY: JIMMY DUNN
“Of the non royal population of Egypt, probably one man is known better than all others. So successful was Imhotep (Imhetep, Greek Imouthes) that he is one of the world’s most famous ancients, and his name, if not his true identity, has been made even more famous by various mummy movies. Today, the world is probably much more familiar with his name than that of his principal king, Djoser. Imhotep, who’s name means “the one that comes in peace”. existed as a mythological figure in the minds of most scholars until the end of the nineteenth century when he was established as a real historical person.
He was the “WORLD’S FIRST ARCHITECT” who built Egypt’s first pyramid, is often recognized as the world’s first doctor, a priest,. scribe, sage, poet, astrologer, and a vizier and chief minister, though this role is unclear, to Djoser (reigned 2630β2611 BC), the second king of Egypt’s third dynasty. He may have lived under as many as four kings. An inscription on one of that kings statues gives us Imhotep’s titles as the “chancellor of the king of lower Egypt”, the “first one under the king”, the “administrator of the great mansion”, the “hereditary Noble”, the “high priest of Heliopolis”, the “chief sculptor”, and finally the “chief carpenter”.
He was the “WORLD’S FIRST NAMED ARCHITECT” who built Egypt’s first pyramid, is often recognized as the world’s first doctor, a priest,. scribe, sage, poet, astrologer, and a vizier and chief minister, though this role is unclear, to Djoser (reigned 2630β2611 BC), the second king of Egypt’s third dynasty. He may have lived under as many as four kings. An inscription on one of that kings statues gives us Imhotep’s titles as the “chancellor of the king of lower Egypt”, the “first one under the king”, the “administrator of the great mansion”, the “hereditary Noble”, the “high priest of Heliopolis”, the “chief sculptor”, and finally the “chief carpenter”.
As a builder, Imhotep is the first master architect who we know by name. He is not only credited as the first pyramid architect, who built Djoser’s Step Pyramid complex at Saqqara, but he may have had a hand in the building of Sekhemkhet’s unfinished pyramid, and also possibly with the establishment of the Edfu Temple, but that is not certain. The Step Pyramid remains today one of the most brilliant architecture wonders of the ancient world and is recognized as the first monumental stone structure.
References:
Chronicle of the Pharaohs (The Reign-By-Reign Record of the Rulers and Dynasties of Ancient Egypt)
Clayton, Peter A.
1994
Thames and Hudson Ltd
ISBN 0-500-05074-0
Complete Pyramids, The (Solving the Ancient Mysteries)
Lehner, Mark
1997
Thames and Hudson, Ltd
ISBN 0-500-05084-8
Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, The
Shaw, Ian; Nicholson, Paul
1995
Harry N. Abrams, Inc., Publishers
ISBN 0-8109-3225-3
History of Ancient Egypt, A
Grimal, Nicolas
1988
Blackwell
None Stated
Monarchs of the Nile
Dodson, Aidan
1995
Rubicon Press
ISBN 0-948695-20-x
Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, The
Shaw, Ian
2000
Oxford University Press
ISBN 0-19-815034-2
IF WE ARE TO BASE OUR ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY, WHO IS THE REAL “CHIEF BUILDER”?
I REST MY CASE.
great argument… well said man.
Please read carefully what was written in wikipedia, You deliberately ommitted some words and phrases such as Imothep was both an architect and an engineer, and also look for the meaning of a polymath. You only believe want you want to beleive. He was a renaissance man, He has aptitude for both sciences and “math”. The great PYRAMID, yes it’s true is a symbol of architecture. By Logic, Let us focus on each term defintion of each profession,The term architecture must be clearly defined since from Latin word Chief Builder is so general that an inventor,an artist would be considered as one. So an architect is chief builder of what? since by no means an engine or an aircraft? say a building? building that is occupied by humans? civilians in particular? then it would overlap to civil engineering who also build for the civilians. The civil engineering is also general in a sense that it pertains engineering for/to “Civil” civilians, A building structure used by civilians is therefore a civilian structure.
Please read above comments form others that question remains Who is the true builder between an architect and an engineer?, The one who plans on functionality and aesthetics or the one who try to make that “drawing” a structure.
From wikipedia,Civil engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the design, construction, and maintenance of the physical and naturally built environment, including works like bridges, roads, canals, dams, and buildings. that is right BUILDINGS.The earliest practices of Civil engineering may have commenced between 4000 and 2000 BC in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia (Ancient Iraq) when humans started to abandon a nomadic existence.
Engineering has been an aspect of life since the beginnings of human existence. The earliest practices of Civil engineering may have commenced between 4000 and 2000 BC in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia (Ancient Iraq) when humans started to abandon a nomadic existence, thus causing a need for the construction of shelter. THIS MEANS IT IS ONLY NOT THE TERM ENGINEERING CIVIL OR NOT BUT THE ACTUAL THOUGHT TO CONSTRUCT BETTER LIVING THAN LIVING IN CAVES, DID THIS ANCIENT PEOPLE ACTUALLY CONSIDERED THE APPEARANCE OF THAT STRUCTURE,MAYBE BUT IT ONLY PRECEDES THE THOUGHT TO CONSTRUCT, THEREFORE CIVIL ENGINEERING IS THE PIONEERING PROFESSION IN THE CONSTRUCTION. SINCE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE TERM AT THAT TIME, LATER ON AS YOU HAVE QOUTED FROM WIKIPEDIA, THE ART AND SCIENCE OF ERECTING BUILDINGS, NOW THIS SCIENCE HERE REFERS TO AS BUILDING TECHNOLOGY SUCH AS LIGHTING AND VENTILATION SINCE BUILDING FRAMES AND ITS BEHAVIOR INVOLVES PHYSICS. I CLEARLY STAND FIRM THAT ARCHITECTURE IS MORE OF CULTURAL STATEMENT SUCH AS FRENCH ARCHITECTURE IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CHINESE, THE PROBLEM STARTS WHEN AN ARCHITECT GOES BEYOND THIS AND TRY TO CONSTRUCT AND EVEN DO THE ENGINEERS JOB SPECIFICALLY STRUCTURAL DESIGN, IT IS NOT ENOUGH REASON THAT SOME ARCHITECT SAYS THEY HAVE THIS SUBJECTS IN COLLEGE DEGREE THUS SHOULD BE ALLOWED WHEN IT COMES TO SMALL BUILDINGS, IS THIS RIGHT? TO DO OTHERS PROFESSION?
According to Vitruvius, an architect and AN ENGINEER (Military) a building should satisfy the three principles of firmitas, utilitas, venustas. FIRMITAS, or durability, SO AHA! STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY COMES FIRST BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, FUNCTIONALITY AND BEAUTY.,SO THIS BECOMES THE ARGUMENT FOR CIVIL ENGINEERS TO DO THE STRUCTURAL CONCEPTUALIZATION SINCE THEY HAVE COMPETENCE THAN ARCHITECTS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS, STRUCTURAL CONCEPTUALIZATION MEANS BUILDING FRAME (MEMBERS, ELEMENTS) PLANNING AND THEREFORE A CE SHOULD BE THE ONE DOING THIS, AND AGREEING ON ABOVE POINT OF VIEW THE AESTHETICS (FACADE,ETC.) SHOULD BE SEPARATED AND BE SIGNED SOLELY BY AN ARCHITECT BUT THE PLANNING SHOULD/CAN BE DONE BY BOTH PROFESSIONAL.
Another thing, the term architecture as originated from Greece until such when they were no term as to defferentiate it from civil engineering. Note: Building planning and construction have no distinction or differentiation and was a variation only in geography and therefore the same person. When your profession is in infrastructure, construction you are called as an Architect in Greece but an Engineer in different place.
Recommendation:
Since the Engineer focuses on how things can/are to be done (on the reality) so they are to be the prime professional on construction, that’s it! while the architect focuses on the other side how the a structure should look, function like when it is finished (more on “fantasy” or dreamed designed /fancy, emotional/social) so they are to be the prime professional in planning.
If you continue to see as you like then rest as the great Imothep did.
When you have said this,
βIn many ancient civilizations, such as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Architectureβ¦β
For in my whole life i have never encountered this lines:
βIn many ancient civilizations, such as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Civil Engineeringβ¦β
You just show how dull you think, you see and interpret it as word for word. Don’t you think the author was merely trying to differentiate it from other distinct architecture because ask anybody a commoner and He’ll surely define architecture as what he sees physically and maybe functionally.
The architecture is living as to it’s definition as it can’t possibly be now in modern times (A chief builder? in ancient times maybe where there are carpenters, masons that a professional knowledgeable in all fields is needed to instruct them, but not today in modern times that is separated by specializations which by 18th century a considered modern time the term “civil engineer” was conceived, this explains it. We cannot base the scope of work by professionals today from ancient times since those times there were renaissance humans (multi-talented) but not specialized in a field, therefore today there is no Chief Builder in Structures as what Architecture defines, since each field has it’s own specialization or has in-depth knowledge, only supervisors.
Architecture begin Where engineering end!
Think about it…………..
To simplify all this, Architecture is restricted to the design of buildings aesthetically while Civil Engineering goes beyond buildings, it involves road design and construction, dams irrigation etc and the science of soil properties and reaction.
To simplify, let the architect work on the aesthetics, functional analysis and programming, and structural conceptualization of buildings.
Civil engineers can help the architect conceptualize the structural elements of the building. CEs then compute all the loadings to assure the structural integrity of the structure (although this should be the work of a specialized CE/ structural engineer).
CEs can also be involved in “road design and construction, dams irrigation etc and the science of soil properties and reaction.”
my experience as a young architect is that when the client asked me that “why do they have to pay that much money to the architect to think that engineers has the right to accept the fee since my architectural design will not be fulfilled without the civil engineer. i know that the client just want me to lower down my architects fee that is why he said that. i told him that both professionals has so many task to share for the project to be a dream come true. leave it all to the architect specially those high rise structures and i’m sure there will be a problem in the structural side. give all the responsibility to the civil engineer and let us see if the building will function in accordance to the use of a particular space needed by the client and if they can make each spaces co-relate from each other. i think, in order for both professionals to function properly is that they must give a lot of respect from each other. instead of showing how arrogant you are because each both (architect and civil engineer) of you want to show to the world who has the most experience in the field, who is the boss, who is the main actor in the construction scene, why not help one another by sharing once knowledge and focus on how to make a harmonious and livable structure so that both the architect and the civil engineer will produce a nice outcome in their projects and make the client smile despite of millions of money that they spent after the project is done.
To Maldito, the problem begun when the Architecture Act of 2004 was passed as a Law when in fact the CE Law must be revised first before this. Prohibiting the CE in design, sign and seal of architectural plans. Please read the CE Law to understand this. The fact remains that anyone can plan, This including in buildings, structures.Others from your profession referred CEs as GREEDY, But who is the one trying to do all the work. And now the Bill Revising CE law The architects organized a move to derail it. The bill seeks to establish the CE as the prime professional on construction (not planning for this was given to Architects) this being the case is rightfully for the CE because of our training on construction. I think some Architects are now being the GREEDY.The curriculum of Architecture includes the subjects mainly of other professions (CE, PLUMBER, MECHANICAL, INTERIOR DESIGN, URBAN/ENV’T. PLANNER), why is this so? The one qouted this
Conclusion: Any structure that is intended for human habitation or consurtium (live, assemblies) should/can be done by both professional but neither can do it alone and is for the benefit of all if they would be as a team.. Simply tells that Building planning specially small residential can be done by both professional (CE or Arch), but why does this wasn’t the view of the one who drafted the Architecture act of 2004. Pardon Me, But allow me to qoute to Tria when she/he said that strength and structural analysis and design are major subjects in architecture, She is trying to say this allows her to do engineering, I can say something here but it would cause too much demeanor to Architecture profession here in RP that can be a basis to which they must not be allowed to do engineering.
Good Day Sir. I think you have been mislead by other comments. Just to enlighten you, our curriculum includes all other discipline simply because the main ideas and design schemes was done by us Architects and to be able to come up with a good and efficient design, we needed to understand other disciplines like:
1. Structural – so we’re not to design an impossible building that couldn’t be built structurally.
2. Electrical and Plumbing – so we could consider the spaces for this discipline in our design (floor plans).
3. Mechanical – so we could have an understanding of the dimensions, specifications of the lifts and escalators we needed to use in a particular building.
4. Interior Design – so we could consider interior design concept in our designs.
5. Urban Planning – it was originally an Architect’s scope but they intend to make it specialised. We still do small scale urban planning which called master planning.
Hope you find my respond to you positively and in a friendly manner.
Best Regards,
Arch. Tonix
Well said, Arch. Tronix.
Architecture is very different from civil engineering. I’m an architect by profession but we design the buildings complete, detailed and functional so that the amount of money envisioned by the client to the architect won’t be a trash. Structural Engineering is computing the loads that the building will carry. Contractors, project construction managers are on site to monitor the work. There must be a division of work it won’t overlap other’s work. Question for everybody will an civil engineer sign the mechanical, electrical, electronics and plumbing plans? Is he the jack of all trades. Absolutely not. In today’s practice which AutoCAD is much is use, it is important that the details and knowledge of each discipline must be respected.
Here in the Philippines the practice of building construction is very lethal that corruption is among the widespread problems. Politics is very high that we do not agree and unite together. Processing of building permits has many red tapes. Even there is a law that prohibits civil engineers to sign architectural plans, they still permit it because of money and commissions. In conclusion we have a bad architecture, urban planning in our country.
i am a civil engineer..i respect the architects and i respect all professionals in our field (construction).
but for basis of arguments, I favorably love my own…not because we engineers assumed to be knowledgeable in construction compared to architects but because we are more responsible of occupants safety.
Practically speaking,(considering failure on both aspects,architectural/structural) a building owner can sleep in his room even if it is warm,hot or small rather than sleeping in a room staring at the floor above that has cracks due to structural failure..
To answer or comment the comments above of ” WHO ? ” will be the boss in construction…
My answer is, (a bias reaction) The civil engineers..
explanation :
1.) planning phase => plans can be done by civil engineers too. (true)
C.E. = 1 point
architect = 1 point
2.) implementation => architects or C.E. can handle this phase (true)
C.E. =2 points
architect = 2 points
3.) finishing works can be done before structural construction, in general..(false)
C.E. = 3 points
architects = 2 points
4.) considering failure..
for architectural, let’s say there is an error of space management of the proposed building project…
result :occupants uncomfortable stay in the building..
remedy : re-design..
for structural, let’s say the building is structurally unstable..
result : the building collapse.
remedy : reconstruct..
QUESTION :
if you where the owner of the building,which in #4 will you have to give more importance, money or money&life?
winner : CIVIL ENGINEERS
i like the way the anonymous author started but let me expand a bit as a civil engineering student:
civil engineers like the anonymous author stated; is the development of civilization everything we live on and surrounds us is based on a civil engineer.
with regards to structures:
– civil engineers are he masterminds behind the material technology of structures
-civil engineers design buildings regarding functionality, sustainability and etc. not architects !
– civil engineers of this era are not responsible for the structural design of building you might see around you today, civil engineers are only the masterminds behind some buildings; our design are basically on the basis of engineering NOT HOW THINGS WORK, BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT SPECIFICALLY KNOW HOW BUILDINGS WORK AS THERE ARE SO MANY PARTS TO IT
– CIVIL ENGINEERING LIKE THE ANONYMOUS AUTHOR STATED, HAS OTHER SUB DISCIPLINES AND AND IS THE BROADEST IN ENGINEERING
CIVIL ENGINEERING INCLUDES WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THE GROUND BELOW US, THE WATER THAT SURROUND US AND HOW TO CREATE A ENVIRONMENT THE IS INHABITABLE FOR HUMANS
CE are just aware of it when they already had the drawings and plans (design by an architects) at their hand as their basis in constructing. But to make a building design and for them considering all these things during the design process? hmmmp..I don’t think so. Since CE don’t have an Architectural Design Curriculum in College. Architects is everything, designing is a very complicated thing, it needs a lot of studies, theory, functionality, flows, orientation, planning; Architects considers structural elements & design too during the design process, aesthetics, and etc. They considered everything in the building; they thinks advance, use a lot of their mind in analytic thinking and imagination, mere computation and technicalities. Including, Fire strategy plans, flow of people (Passive and active area to divide), capacity per space or room, Standards for spaces, ventilation, vertical & horizontal bldg limit, sanitary & plumbing, and a lot more to mention. Architect should lead in construction process because they are the designer. If these CE people studied in Architecture hmm, I’m sure they won’t regret. And all of their questions will be answered
Architects always claim that they are more versatile than civil engineers (or at least structural engineers) but always forget the fact that engineers create so much more, within the built environment, than just buildings. They design dams, bridges, tunnels and subways, highways, sewers, offshore structures, harbors, power plants and so much more. And yes I am aware that architects can work on bridges and dams but it has to be in collaboration with engineers who can do it (and most often do) without architects. This makes the engineers the leaders of construction since they are almost always needed on a wide variety of projects while architects are only needed on buildings that house many people. And even on buildings the most important part is ensuring its structural integrity and safety rather than good use of spaces and aesthetics.
where you are from????
I’m a license architect in the Philippines but currently working and handling projects abroad. For my opinion, only in Philippines where architects have been given lesser importance, maybe due to our economy (more on cost saving issues which usually clients/owners considers).
I am actually working in Malaysia and Architects are the one who’s heading the projects, it’s like he’s the spoke person of the owner besides the project manager. We are the one chairing meetings and coordination with the corresponding consultants and discipline.
The Engineers will rely on our design decisions and would do the computations structurally. It is also the Engineers job (Contractors) to make sure that the design of the Architects be followed accordingly during construction.
I think the problem now in the Philippines is not on which is better between Architect and Civil Engineers rather, it is on the “DESIGN-BUILD” issue that Architects and CE’s usually do. The reason mainly is to cut cost on paying other consultants which will occur in an inefficient structures.
Just my two cent.. CHILL!!!
it was never an architect’s intention to be a jack of all trade and neglect the part of an engineer in building the industry. we are not saying that we wouldn’t need the various engineering services. we are just merely stating a fact that in ANY project, the initial flow of work STARTS with the study of what the client wants in terms of the design and flow of the space they want to be built and the profession knowledgeable with this aspect is an architect. Another post stated that yes, we have the various engineering subjects in college, but if i may say so, this does not mean that the statement automatically says that we can do EVERYTHING. it just merely an indication that in the planning and schematic stages, we are aware of the structural, plumbing, electrical and mechanical basics, but still consultation with the necessary field is needed.
All this argument is really interesting but the bottom line is… architectural drawings should be done by what the drawings are called by the ARCHITECT. if engineers want to do that part then they should study architecture as well… i know some professionals that are both an engineer and an architect.
this is my two cents on this…
We PROFESSIONALS should not argue with each other. We should have the better understanding of this situation because WE ARE PROFESSIONALS after all, right? I am an architect, but for me, if both professions really have the RESPECT for each other, both parties should have opposed to the amendment of the CE Law and raised these arguments, and explained the consequences of these actions (which is happening right now in this conference, by the way) early on to the authorities, and fought till the end to never allow this to happen. But sadly, things did happen because of the personal interests that blinds those who will now benefit to this law. I do not think that all engineers and architects wanted this, because there are still these groups, no matter how much they earn in this field, are still following with what the law requires them to do. Everybody is a loser in this situation, and much more, OUR COUNTRY SUFFERS THE MOST. Both parties have reasons, pointing fingers at each other, but never have we tried asking ourselves first and reflect what brought out these events.
peace!
Well let me just say, actually the only thing the architect does is the conceptual design; the physical aesthetics, and when they have completed this, a civil engineering cOntractor is contacted in order to select the structural design etc, so the only thin you do which bass little importance is the most commercial, and the civil engineers are left in the shadows, when none of the structures around the world today will be non-existent if it wasn’t for civil engineers
May I just inform you sir that we architects are the most competent contractor amongst the list of construction professionals, we’re don’t just design but we also understand all aspects of the construction, we’re trained to do just exactly that. We had our “strength of materials” (exactly the same units engineering students took for structural designing, so we’re basically equip t with knowledge to make a structure stand as far a simple structures are concern, but we opt to leave it to CE to design for us, because it’s their forte. We’re also aware of the appropriate material to use in types of construction, because we also had the BLDG. TECH subject for this matter and I think we do have the edge when it comes to advanced and on trend materials available in the market because of that. Plumbing, Electrical, HVAC were also included in the five year painful course that every architecture students have to endure, so its safe to say that Architects are really your “JACK OF ALL TRADES” for that matter. So we really have to be on the top of the pyramid group for we ARCHITECTS are the CONDUCTOR of the orchestra, the CAPTAIN of the ship, the COACH of the basketball team. With all due respect to all construction pro, I know we all are knowledgeable in this construction business but someone just have to on top to make sure things are all working accordingly, and ARCHITECTS just happen to have a knowledge of every aspect of that compare to CE who didn’t came across with an architectural design class, or a Master Plumber, Electrical, and Mechanical Engineers who’s unaware of structural standards of designs as architect’s do. But on top of that all of us we’re of same importance to a project, missing just one would be a disaster in the making…
Review your thinking Jack, You don’t even simply know what is a master plumber, what is plumbing. As an author have previously stated everything is governed by science, Plumbing is governed by fluid mechanics and hydraulics which is a major subject in civil engineering. Yes you have background in Design of Structures but who handles most of the time these subjects for you, yes a civil engineer. And what is the saying? ” No Student is greater than his teacher”,
But on top of that all of us weβre of same importance to a project, missing just one would be a disaster in the makingβ¦? civilization was built even before there were no architects only civil engineers (The urge to build say shelter was first than the urge to beautify these shelter), I say in Contruction, the top professional should be the Civil Engineer. In planning (aesthetically), the Architects. This two fields are different, the issue/problem is that these aesthetic professionals tried to overlap each field in construction by including subjects in their curriculum, which must be revised and have them restricted to drawings which they are good at. Architects as to Artists, Engineers-Builders.
I have noticed there are some spelling mistakes in my post above, π
I know this is a big issue between Architects and Civil Engineers but every work is related to one another. There’s no doubt that Civil Engineers have the biggest burden in construction for the stability of structure depends on them however, its time to spell out and define the specific functions and boundaries of responsibilities of each professionals. We should try to respect each ones practice as professionals. I don’t care about the laws. Its about respect.
Sanitary works = Sanitary Engineer
Plumbing works = Master plumber
Electrical works = Electrical Engineer
Mechanical works = Mechanical Engineer
Civil works = Civil Engineer
Structural works = Structural Engineer
Architectural works = Architects
As simple as that. We all do know that Architects and Civil Engineers are always partners in construction as to they so called “DESIGN-BUILD”. Lets do take action as to not make things worse.
BE HAPPY!
Know your limits and RESPECT other’s profession… why do an Architectural work if you dont have the capacity to do it?… (with respect);if you claim that you can do the work, why hire an undergrad or an architecture student to do the planning for you, then you’ll sign it… what you did is just affix your signature and claim that you can do the work…
I am a senior student going into college and have a dought in my mind what to take into that 2 courses (CE and ARC) and because of your conversation you make it worst why all of you judging each other to the another one that cannot do. These two profession is a team not best enemies team up together and make more infrastructure buildings and project for your country to make it more reproductive and also your profession will be more productive.And still now i do not know what to take in that 2 courses
I don’t hire undergrad to do architectural planning for me for my small scale projects, 2 to 3 storey residential houses, I do Autocadd and Sketchup.
in the philippines!!! civil engineers can signed and sealed architectural plans….
architects will be gone to dust….
civil engineers as of now in the philippines is all about 200k licensed.. active 100k +
architects 26k only… active 10k+
that’s why!! court appeal decided civil engineers can signed and sealed architertural plans….
2 in 1….. civil engineers can practice architecture in the philippines…
we architects as of this moment this is our challenge in life…
we will fought until the society accepts the reality that ARCHITECTS do exist…..
first of all, review your grammar, its wrong!
In short, architects specializes vertical structures while civil engineers “can” do vertical ones but specializes on horizontal structures.
real world practice pays off.. all you guys have to do is to understand.. WE’ RE DIFFERENT… juz like “EVERY LIVING THING is unique..”
i strongly disagree! as architect we have structural subjects that we took when we were in college we may not know everything about structural computation, but we were taught to design structures that are buildable. We dont just draw or design structures without taking into consideration if it would be viable and feasible. we also had subject on plumbing and other utilities like electrical and mechanical systems. This are all taught in order for us understand the basic concepts of the different fields in construction. while civil engineers are in charge when in comes to the structural integrity of the structure this doesnt make them more important or less important when compared to other engineering consultants for electrical, mechanical and sanitary systems. The business of erecting and constructing a building doesnt belong to one specific profession. Its a business that only qualified Contractors are allowed. a civil engineer cannot act as a contractor if he is not a registered contractor, it is also same with architects. To end my point here is both proffesion can undergo in the business of construction if they are qualified and they are registered contractors. We Respect the Civil Engineering profession by not interfering in there practice. We also raise our appeal to Civil Engineers to reciprocate the same!
I am a prospective 5th yr “construction technology and managment student”
dear mr/madam
The two guys! Donot worry the boss is a proffessional construction Technology manager which is one of the recent engineering discpline.These proffessionals have a background of architecture,civil engineering and construction managment .so when we become to the point the construction manager can hire both the structural engineer and architect and creates value engineering and follow the modern construction managment principle to satisfay the clients requirment since the proffessional construction manager is the star for cos-time-quality which are the most critical requirments of client.The architect does not know any thing about the methodology,construction technique,schedule development,work program preparation and claims ,cost engineering concept .so the boss of the costruction project is either proffessional construction manager who is also contractor’s construction manageror client representative or a engineer who specialised by construction manager.
What’s described in this article is Structural Engineering – a subset of Civil Engineering.
Some aspects of Civil Engineering have nothing to do with buildings. It’s a very wide and varied subject area. Almost everything you do today would’ve involved a Civil Engineer at some stage.
When you turned your tap on, civil engineers were probably responsible for designing the network of pipes that delivered the water to your building, and the ones that will take it away again.
When you get in your car, other civil engineers would’ve been responsible for the design construction of the road and bridges you use. The same goes for the railways.
I’ve been a Civil Engineer for 10 years and don’t regularly work with architects.
My main focus has been in Rivers and Flooding. But I’ve also worked in Waste Management – what happens to the garbage you put in your bins/cans after it magically disappears from your driveway/street.
You’re selling civil engineering very short here. There’s much more to it than dealing with architects or architect-influenced projects.
in my opinion,in this argumentation happen the most popular one is the civil engineering organization. Because all the needed of the architects , are there in the field of civil engineer, we have a field that we want to choose this aree the ff.
a. structural engineering
b. transportation engineering
c. geothermal engineering
etc.
..in this field the architecture wont have been exprriencing and analyze the water drainage system that we want to do, perhaps they dont have knowing that civil engineering is the one ,who plan the exact location of that particular project that they want to do.
To Jayson Rollota;
I’m a licensed and practicing architect,contrary to your belief that architecture does not concern with those areas,We architects have major subjects in Structural Designing( Ultimate Strength,3 moment equations,moving loads,electrical and mechanical systems etc.We can relate…,years ago our final exam in our Ultimate Strength subject is to design “structurally a 5 storey building from footing to columns,slabs,etc. and we were given 5 hours to compute),We also have subjects in Site surveying,We are trained to use a transit and level.But in addition to that we also have creative subjects,to cut the story short we are trained to use the left and right portions of our brain to the fullest extent.
In site selection,there are many factors to be considered,like solar and wind orientation,the topography,socio-economic factors,etc. and we understand it.I just dont like the notion of some “students” here that architecture is just about design.We are not dumb,architecture is not just an art but a science,In my mind I can visualize the entire project in 3d.In the real practice both the civil engineering and architecture profession help each other,both are equal professionals.No one is better than the other!
you sure?? do you know the mechanical works?? maybe the physical, but you can never say you know Mechanical unless you studied Mechanical Engineering.
Do you even know the heat load calculation? piping design? pump design? and even psychrometric analysis? how about power plant design? please dont boast around your architectural lack of knowledge regarding mechanical engineering
As Architects we DONT do the mechanical pipings nor the intricate calculations in mechanical engineering but we do know how much space a building needs for mechanical considerations.We do know where to locate the elevators,the escalators,etc.We dont claim the field of expertise of mechanical engineering because we work with other engineering professionals to make the BEST built environment.I was just not happy with the strange notion that architects only deal with the exterior design because we study the building project as a whole working together with the other professionals.I am not bragging anything because I am just merely protecting my profession and stating whats in the real practice.One profession is not enough to produce the best project.It needs the minds and expertise of everyone.(Personally speaking,if I studied mechanical engineering instead of architecture,Im sure I had the equations and the training to solve mechanical engineering problems,this applies also to you; If you are a mechanical engineer asked to do the work of an architect,that would be illogical since its not your field of expertise.I’m simply stressing your argument is invalid.)
Are you saying Architects are jack of all trades? You mention you know structural design, USD, three moment equation, moment distribution and so on. Don’t pretend you know everything that is dangerous.
I sae Architects and CEs nid each oer. We all hv stuff we specialize in and we are branches on the same tree so why try and find out who’s better? We all use Autocad, we all do mechanics @ sme point. We are interlinked! No use arguing, I am an Architecture major and hv put it upon myself to learn about and respect all parties involved in construction. Its not bwt the $ bt tz th passion, dat jus lacks these daez. Think abt it, we are one, difference z we specialize in different aspects of construction but it all leads to one thing, creation and union. #jus sayn#
i completely agree with you. it is important that we yearn for the understanding of all subjects so that we work together as a unit to improve. just as past civilizations have worked together to create the modern life as we know. we should not argue who is better but to use knowledge and wisdom for the betterment of mankind. i am currently in highschool and want to be a civil engineer and to learn as much as i can.
There is no way an engineering disciplines is in anyway compatible to something like architecture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chl5_z-gkWg&sns=fb PLEASE WATCH THIS LINK SO YOU WILL KNOW HOW EACH PROFESSIONAL IS RELATED.ARCHITECTURE IS MUCH OF A SCIENCE AS IT IS AN ART,IT IS NOT LESSER THAN ANY ENGINEERING PROFESSION BECAUSE WE ALSO FOLLOW SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING METHODS.
I was a year late with this conversation but I think I’ll still have to leave what I perceive about this issues,I’m just a student though, so I might not have the right to comment here but I’ll still have to, I’m a 4th yr Bs Architecture student,i wanna tell you people student or professionals over there that our profession needs collaboration with other technical and non- technical professions because as far as we are concerned. creating a livable environment doesn’t require a sole architect, a sole engineer etc, you people are suppose to be a team combined to create the best shelter to house human activity, but yet in reality, the Engineer hates the Architect and so on. Your work differs in many ways, Engineers for structural design and load computations etc, Architects for planning,yeah planning not just drawing and drafting, because you take planning literally as making schematic plans, no that’s not how we do it, we plan in a manner that we consider a lot of things, the needs of the people involve, the proponents, stakeholders, client and so on, we consider their cultural needs, their psychological needs, to name a few. We don’t just draw crazy ass presentations to impressed our clients, we don’t specify materials just for aesthetics, all small piece of materials that we specify on a certain drawing have its own use. And yet through my experience, this is what the person that i wouldn’t his/her name, that we Architects are only good at aesthetics, quoting out na ” hanggang sa pampaganda lang daw ang arki” and that made it obvious that starting from college life of the students, they are being told with such things and I think that it’s very unprofessional. I even help this person once with her Engineering Design Subject, I’m not familiar with this subject so I don’t think that I wrote the properly but it’s something like that. The person ask for help to design the elevation of their bungalow house, that’s their plate, a simple bungalow house, I’m not bragging with this story because this so called Engineering and Architecture war was beyond my expectation that it is already happening. I did the drawing for sure, i gave the drawing and the following day later, I ask the person how did their plate have gone, and the person told me that it’s okay but their prof cannot visualized how the design was,and I told her what? I made the design very simple and their prof cannot even visualized it. And going back with that drawing, the plan was really messed up, it’s just a maze not a plan with the sizes of the parts of the houses neglected and yet this person told me that this is what their prof have specified such dimensions.And this professor of them is really messing up with his Architecture students that he handles on his math subjects. No architecture students will pass if they will cross enroll their math subjects to the engineering class. This is really happening until now.
That is why I wanna tell this, it’s no use arguing with each other, because in the construction field, we are linked and work as one to make those projects materialize. We all specialized in our own practices but when we put up our work together, we become one. So don’t compare yourself around with each other, because Architecture and Engineering is like softball and baseball game. They both have difference and similarity.
Lol you sir/madam do not know what you are talking about!
Also we did not invite mechanical engineers into this read the title, stay out of it
And what do mechanical engineers have to do with power plants?
Blah blah blah, you profession does not require any specific skill, it’s just a shame the world is so commercial these days and the people tht really work hard are left in the shadows
Sorry to break the seat you were so comfortable in engulfed in your own vain glory
And by the way( AV Architect) structural engineers design structures also, for instance the velodrome in the 2012 Olympic, and oh yeah, don’t forget the goetechinical engineers who ensure structures are built in a suitable foundation, and hydraualic engineers that design piping within a structure, and the suwage discharge etc.., like I said, all the hard workers are left in the shadows, there is no way at all a architect can cimpare his or her proffesional to that of a civil engineer, and these sectors i mentioned with civil engineering are only related to the design and construction of a structure, there are many more things civil engineers make happen that the average joe, even a person with wide knowledge doesn’t know just because the main prices to the puzzle are disregarded..
I’m not putting down any other proffesion just stating facts
@Kola ;Its only logical for a structural engineer to design the structural aspect of the project,the sanitary engineer and electrical engineer to design the plumbing and electrical systems and for the architect, to design the structure as a whole and coordinate with these professionals.The best built environment can only be achieved if each one played their roles right.I have already explained in my earlier posts the considerations an architect does before he designs the overall planning and design of the building.We have to consider the client’s needs,what the project really needs,the budget,the regulatory requirements,the technical requirements (the structural,plumbing,sanitary and electrical considerations),the project location,the materials to be used,the environmental and cultural impact of the project.I have high respect for my engineers because I understand the training they went to become professionals and I also expect them to do the same to me as the Architect of the project.Architecture is a state regulated profession like engineering professions therefore engineers and architects share an equal responsibility and importance in the practice.There may be cases wherein architects earn higher than engineers and some cases wherein engineers earn higher than architects but these things which has something to do with income and fame does not necessarily connect with the profession.It will always depend on the INDIVIDUAL regardless of profession,race or gender.I simply want to say,no profession is better than the other and lets just RESPECT each other.
I just want to say this to everyone, every profession has it’s unique skills needed in the construction industry, primarily we architects DESIGN buildings and when we design buildings, we design not just the artistic aspect of the building but also with regard to the COMFORT AND SAFETY OF THE PEOPLE MOVING INSIDE the proposed structure; AFTER ALL, THESE people are the main reason why we create the building, the building would be useless if no one uses it uses it and walks around or inside it, this is the basic design that we do. Even if we have building technology subjects and we know something about how a building will be constructed, we leave that work to the civil engineers because DESIGNING a building alone takes too much of our time and concentration. Not to say that we are incapable of multitasking but we value the designing of the building so much because it is our main focus and it is what we do best.
As for engineers, we value and respect your mathematical and analytical skills too when it comes to making the building stable and sturdy, we could never complete a structure without your needed help.
I hope everyone understands this and will value every profession in this industry and all of our output will have quality on it.
You dont mention about other fields of Civil Engineer like Hydrology,
Geo-technology and transformation engineering and Environmental engineering.
A Civil Engineer is committed to Society, Especially safety of Building construction and Environmental Sustainability.
What a moron, you don’t even know anything about your line of work or engineers, you give us the budget before hand, and the engineers return telling who ever they are selecting designs for how much ther are saving them, take your trash elsewhere !
CONTEST–
1 architect vs 10 civil engineers——-Project ” Airport “(beautiful)
scope of work..
floor plans
structural conceptualization
site development plan
elevations, electrical, plumbing,hvac
aerial perspective..
like i said, when in comes on constructing facilities there is no argument because these two works hand in hand..
scope of work..
floor plans
structural conceptualization
site development plan
elevations, electrical, plumbing,hvac
aerial perspective..
plus..
resistance in earthquake
low material costing but effective constructtion
plumbing with a given pressure needed by the design avoiding accidents
floor that will not crack for decades.
…. i think you need another 20 architect π
but if the project is to draw, you win heheh
You should studied electronics engineering to appreciate both civil and architectural works, hehehe, Once said “electronics itself is a miracle” maybe you think Im far from discussion, but based on my field, we have until strength of materials subject, engineering drawings, computer architecture( w/c we understand hehe). I do believe that on building, civil and architecture are team. Because they are doing two separate task. In an argument of technicalities, I think engineering does have deeper knowledge. Because engineers apply physics, more mathematics and chemistry.
Hi John,I agree with you.As a practicing and licensed Architect it is necessary to work hand in hand with other professionals to achieve the best built environment.However I don’t seem to understand why you implied in your argument that we have lesser mathematics in Architecture.hehe.We have strength of materials subject,ultimate strength design,integral calculus,solid mensuration,electrical design,plumbing design,construction techniques which has the same number of credit units with those studying engineering at our school that is on top of our design subjects,presentation techniques,CAD 3d,urban and regional planning,tropical design,history of architecture.This is as far as I can remember back then,usually only 3 to 5 out of the original 200 students would graduate.I believe both professions,the Civil Engineers and Architects play an equally important role.
What Im sayin, is that in order for the engineers to perform their task, they should have deeper knowledge and background on mathematics and physics. To be able to fullfil your design, each application must be computed by the used of math/physics, chemistry etc,,.
– Iam electronics engineer, but we studied strength of materials as a common subject for Civil engineering, that just a minor subject for them,
after that they will take up as i believe huh,, thy have these mechanics of materias, mechanical engineering, structural theory subjects, structural design, construction of materials and testing, earthquake engineering and pre stressed concrete.
– For math, after integral calculus they have, diff equation, advanced engineering mathematics,probability,
– For electrical design i think both of you doesnt need much of these subjects since you are not focusing on these fields, both of you are taking up minor electrical subjects, but I believe they are taking electrical engineering not design, as they need physical application for engineering students, unlike your’s more on designing, still it is more technical, the engineering electrical.
– Plumbing design, they have fluid mechanics ofcourse,, then hydraulics, hydrology, ofcourse physics subjects, water resource engineering.
– I belive for computer application for engineering they have computer programming and until ACAD only.
My brother is ARCHITECTURE and I am Engineering so we really talk a lot about like this topic.
This is what I can comment about your question why you have lesser mathematics. But like I said this is not a argument. Everyone has a role.
And it is two different role.
i really enjoy the brainstorming……keep it up guys….
Ako ay BS Architecture graduate and I work for both Architects and Engineers(Civil).
The problem with the architects is the are so proud of their projects but their draftsmen are starving. They earn millions while taking advantage of the required 2 years apprenticeship.
Civil Engineers pay better but they claim the credit of the design done by architecture graduates or even undergraduates they hired to design a building for them. It’s kind of unethical.
You can’t make a client hire you to do his building if what you’re bringing is only the strength of the building and without a very good presentation.
yup i dont think that c.e dont acknowledge arki design.
Arki!
I don’t think you know what you are talking about, please state the name of projects or structures which were designed by architects; where the civil engineers took the glory?
Kola!
I don’t think you understand what I’m talking about. I said architecture graduates or undergraduates.
Maybe you are just a student because you don’t know what’s happening in the real world. You are just relying on what your teachers tell you.
Stop thinking that you can do what architects do for I have worked with your kind. Your kind that I’ve worked with don’t even know what a vestibule is for. One CE former office mate of mine doesn’t even know how to make grid lines. There is also this former University math teacher that doesn’t even know how to draw a north arrow.
your argument is based on your own perspective, are we talking about drawings or line only in this discussion? tsk tsk
who earns more?
Engineers by a fair amount, (legal responsibility).
@ arki
Don’t insult me mate, and also if dont think it’s difficult to understand that architects are about as important as those speacial name enspricpted plates on office doors, you can do without them, and let me tell you something civil engineering students in unversoty are far more capable of designing a sustainable structure than a architect in his prim LOL, and oh yeah is quiet easy to test people in your area of expertise and parted use them for their lack of knowledge, you have got to understand you journey is far less bumpy in comparison to that’s of an engineer like I have said before an architect can never compare his/her line of work with any that are in EINGINEERING <<<<< the only reason why you have all you silver spoon material earthly good is because Of them!
Mind my spelling auto corrections keep switching words around :):):):)
Am a student of Civil Engineering but i still hold the fact that Architecture and Civil Engineering should never be compared. The reason for this is the fact that there ar so many ELECTIVES that constitute the word CIVIL ENGINEERING. For example we have Traffic and Highway, Geotechnical Engineering, Hydrology Civil Engineers or Water Resources Civil Engineering,Environmental Pollution CE, Drainage and Irrigation CE. al this are parts of Civil Engineering in which by no form Architecture is required. Architecture is only required with few part of the Civil Engineering system and that is the BUILDING/CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING. Plz take note that Civil Engineering does not only constitute Building and Construction which is based on Architecture but also areas like Geotechnical CE which Architecture is no where 2 b found. Architecture should be a part of the Engineering system.
I am civil engineer from India. Is there any one who can tell me about the basic structure designing concept of different developed countries? Are all based on same concept? e.g. Limit state design or some other advance principles? If not then is there any difference between the terms and symbols used at various developed countries in their structure designing? Also I want to know that is there any scope of civil structure engineer from india in developed countries as I have never seen any vacancy in any newspaper for countries like USA and UK. please respond me at er_tauqeer_ahmad@yahoo.co.in
I don,t understand what all these arguments are all about. I’m an architect by profession and Architecture involves a whole lot. An Architect must be versatile in his field of study and must be knowledgeable in all other professions such as Medicine, Law, Banking, Teaching and so on to enable him practice.He must have a wide range of knowledge in every aspect of life because his primary duty is to provide shelter. God is the architect (creator) of the universe and architects are His co-creators.
In a nutshell, Architecture is all about creating a functional, beautiful and comfortable space for a particular purpose in a particular environment.
An Architect is an architect and a Civil Engr. is a civil engr. Each professional has his own area of jurisdiction. |I believe in pure professionalism, why should i do the work of a civil engr when he can do it better than me, although i have a knowledge of his own profession and vice versa,each one is important.
But Let us bear in mind that the architect is the master builder and the prime consultant in any building project, others are answerable to him.
Also in some Multifarious Projects, the architect may not only be the prime consultant, there could be other prime consultants like the civil engr. and the electrical engr.
Finally the architect and the civil engr. work hand in hand to achieve a beautiful, functional and stable structure,therefore in whichever profession you find yourself, please practice and defend it well so that we all can create a better environment for mankind.
I agree with ponron, an will also expand on what he says, the point is that architects think they have knowledge in our field but they don’t, they think they are important but they aren’t, they don’t understand how or why a structure can keep erect regardless of the natrual weathering factors, civil engineers can design without architects, but architects can not design without civil engineers, I will give the example I always use which is the velodrome in the London Olympics, designed entirely by a civil engineer and if you ask me it looks alot better in comparison to the other design made by the architects which were involved in the Olympics 2012 project
nice
I think it is misunderstanding of civil engineers, Architecture is a professional degree and civil engr is general study of engineering, so after specializing CEs called designer. otherwise CEs do practical work in projects, Under the direction of Project Manager, Architecture, Structural Designer, Electrical and Mechanical Designer. If Architect canβt do any thing, After some year engineering projects should be typical and the skill labor also should call himself Engineer.
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@Kola,you sure have a rigid head to make a hasty generalization that a profession can make a person better than the other.As I have said in my earlier posts,both professions are important.When you work on a certain project,it involves many professionals.Everyone is important irregardless of profession or position.Architects also have the academic subjects civil engineers have.But we also study building codes,structural codes,plumbing codes,electrical codes,etc.Civil Engineering and Architecture should NEVER be compared.Both are separate professions with respective functions.The success or importance of an individual in a project is not determined by his profession.Architects and Engineers are ALLIED professions!!!!!
Let’s take a closer look at it :
1. In terms of habitable buildings (residential, commercial, industrial), ARCHS and CE’s are able BY LAW to do almost the same thing. I am excluding here bridges, tunnels, etc, since this isnt our scope here.
2. Since they both CAN do the same thing, then its more a question of WANTS than CANS.
3. If WANTS is not reflected on KNOWS, then, go back to school and study more. If you are a graduated arch or CE, and went thru all the dificulties of both programs, I am 100% sure you can learn anything related to construction – Be it physics, mathematics, drawing, ergonomy, and even ART.
This is the way I see, we are all CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, and we CAN and WILL overlap each other’s “jurisdiction”. And you know why? Because this jurisdiction DOESNT EXIST. Both Archs and CE’s can do the same thing, and if they are capable of doing it, THEY WILL.
Now that we set aside the wants and cans, if you are a worker of the construction business, be smart and divide your work, or else you’ll need much more time to build, and time, my friends, is money. Sometimes its more profitable to divide your work and build faster than be the “jack of all trades” as somebody mentioned. You already divide your work with constractors, bricklayers and carpenters, why not bring some CE/ARCH intelect in the game too?
On the other hand, if time is not an issue, and its a small project, I am 100% sure you are capable of doing it all with your hands, be you an ARCH, or CE. Even mix the mortar and lay the bricks if you want to.
Hi there,
Your question is similar to as asking: Which one is better for your health, an apple or orange? It’s not definitely not possible to answer that since our human body relies on both of them for a proper growth. Following the same logic, Architects and Engineers relies on each other to share the workload. I love maths and physics but I am very talented at art and I just love Architecture, so I do what I love-Architecture. And the same applies to builders, project managers and so on.
Hope that clears some misunderstandings. Have a g’day π
Im a licensed Civil Engr. , But I like to work as an architect ,, I like to draw and design alot…,,,a little bit of remorse and regret to what I have suppose to take up on college.., I just realized it just now.
Here in the Philippines, CEs are the cheapest professionals. They don’t even know how to charge their client. They rely on Architects’ code when billing clients. Majority of contractors are CEs but they can not even enforce their Structural standards and codes during construction. They don’t understand Plumbing, Electrical, HVAC compared to Philippine Architects. The most funny thing is, I have met countless numbers of CE’s who will jump for joy when their clients pay them 500 Pesos for their services. LMAO!!!
If Civil Engineering has a heavier liabilities, why is it that they are not required to have experience first before taking the CE Licensure Exams? We should know that in the Philippines, before you take up the Licensure Exams for Architects, they are required to have at least 2 yrs. apprenticeship! If you’re the client of say, a 2-Storey Residence, whom would you entrust your house to stand as the Project Head, to a newly Licensed Civil Engineer? Or to a newly Licensed Architect?
Civil Engineers Are the Foundation of the world. We shape the world name it ,, through tunnels , canals , bridges , urban and rural habitual structures , through irrigation of water designs , proper testing of geotechnical foundation of every existing structures you can see , through design of road highways up to actual construction management planning of Costing , Time , equipment and manpower. We are the problem solvers of all Earthly forces through means of structural analysis of designs we investigate and compute so that any Visual designs or every ( engrs. and architects’ imaginations can be made and seen through reality ). Thats why we are called Civils , Civil meaning people , human or ” civilians ” ,We are Engineers for the benefit Human Beings for a better place to live and can exist for centuries.. I hope in the world that architects and civil engrs. can been seen equally or thought as one with more years offcourse cause there are merge.
I agree to this , but I think that , a civil engineer can make the design also, and give the better outlook than an architecture, if he intrested in it.
BLA BLA BLA
Please just get along!!!!!!!!!!!
Construction industry is complicated enough already. The more complicated the building the more specialists we need. The more we depend on each other. No one can know it all.
No need to argue who is really the boss between Architects and Civil Engineers. Both have expertise in structure and must understand each other in the field. Do not use your pride just share your knowledge to others instead. The construction project will immediately done if both engineers and architects understand. Do not underestimate once power π
with due respect to architectural subjects and the extent of creativity embedded in them …i would like to ask …..how much will a man devoid of basic facillities such as housing ,sanitation etc care for asthetics ……which is very much prevelent in developing or developed countries . why would “below poverty line” guy care for spacial comfort and asthetics in draught hit area ….he would primirily need a strong shelter which couldwithstand extreme conditions even if architects call it a matcbox ……the fact remains ………architecture is for filled stomach !!!…..civil is the basis …….it is survival !!!…..
Civil vs Architecture
1. Land Survey-Project survey-Surveying
Civil-yes
Arch-no
2. Building design & building science
Civil-yes
Arch- yes
3. Geotechnical concept
Civil-yes
Arch-no
4. Hydraustatic-dynamic structure
Civil-yes
Arch-no
5. Railway engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
6. Airport engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
7. Highway engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
8. Earthquake engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
9. Bridge engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
10. Tunnel engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
11. Urban science & Sanitary engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-yes
12. Environmental engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-yes
13. underground structural engineering
Civil-yes
Arch-no
.
.
Simply Architectural engineering is the branch of civil engineeering with broader design and planning comcept for residential or commercial buildings only.
Because 4-year of study is not enough to design more iconic structures.
It is time consuming & architects have their lot of imaginary power than civil engineers because they have spent lot of time in thinking new designs.
In terms of structural stability of a structure they need help of a civil engineer.
Similarly in terms of specific interior or exterior designs civil engineers MAY need Architects.
.
##ARCHITECTS HAVE LOT OF LIMITATIONS BUT CIVIL ENGINEERS HAVE LESS LIMITATIONS###
because AN ARCHITECT IS AFFORDABLE TO RICH ONLY BUT CIVIL ENGINEERS ARE AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE IN THE WORLD.
.
.
1ST-CONSTRUCTION
2ND- DESIGN & ARCHITECTURAL VIEW
Wrong notion CEs probably you are mostly students here. Why not review the architecture curriculum so you know how they work. Even most CE professionals are dumb on architectural planning. They really don’t consider the right space planning for buildings even on their own domain like roads (they didn’t consider the possible traffic it will cause in the future probably want it done right away to have the funds go into their pockets). So CEs learn to respect architects most of you are downgrading the architecture field since college. The truth is corruption is the reason why architects are being treated this way. Safety is also considered on architectural planning.
Chanda’s assessment is inaccurate, and down the tunnel perception about archs, ehhh…??? Because it so happen that I know one CE who is working for a huge company who asked an artist: How can you paint all these things? How can you draw such design….
I have 4 majors, and I’m an architect….so Chanda can shut up…:)
In the Philippines, beautiful scenery have been ruined by ugly architecture. This is because the architecture were performed by Civil Engineers who have no clout in architectural designing and don’t have the capacity to implement aesthetics in construction projects. They are always being overruled by the owner and the construction foremen regarding aestheticswho like them have no knowledge of architecture and have no eye for beauty. These resulted into ugly, same looking-chaotic structures fitted only for the slums of 3rd world countries. Other countries are being visited by foreign tourists to view their beautiful architecture matched with beautiful scenery. While in the Philippines, it’s the sex tours that foreigners want to experience not the beautiful structures. This should be blamed to the Civil Engineers who for years have been practicing architecture without the any concern for aesthetic making the Philippines hideous and very 3rd world looking. The Philippines should ban Civil Engineers from practicing architecture. The Philippines will not attain 1st world status if CEs will continue practicing architecture in this country. Their goal is only to make money by continuously constructing buildings fitted for ghettos.
Philippine Architecture curriculum Mathematics and Engineering subjects:
1st year: Algebra, Trigonometry & Analytic Geometry
2nd year: Differential Calculus, Integral Calculus, Physics 1 & Physics 2
3rd year: Surveying, Mechanics 1 (Dynamics & Thermodynamics) , Mechanics 2 (Strength of Materials) & Construction estimating
4th year: Theory of Structures 1, Timber Design & Building Utilities (MEPF)
5th year: Reinforced Concrete, Pre-stressed & Post Tension Concrete Design with Seismic Analysis & Structural Steel Design
These subjects together with architectural design subjects equips an Architecture graduate to be fully prepared to be a general building contractor. Like in Civil Engineering, the limited schooling time is not enough for professors to teach everything to the students. Students however are supposed to do research work, have continuous education and complete their libraries specially on engineering codes to fully supplement their knowledge in building construction.
So the earlier posts regarding Architects having no knowledge in Engineering is false. Maybe that is the case in other countries wherein architecture is merely a liberal arts program and there are no board exam. But that is not the case with Philippine Architects who took the program as a Bachelor of Science degree.
In the Philippines architects are almost everywhere whether it is employment or freelancing (self-employment). Unlike engineers many Filipino architects are capable of surviving by being self-employed due to their numerous skills and services which cater to most of the population and even to engineers. In BPO, construction and consulting companies you would find architects in engineering sections but it is very rarely that you will encounter an engineer in the architectural section.
To whom would an engineer offer his services to design bridges and roads? Can a CE offer these type of services to common lot/land owners? Whereas an architect can offer his architectural design and drafting services to practically almost everyone including engineers. So you would often encounter CEs offering architectural services due to unavailable clients in their roads and bridge design services. They offer architecture services, yet they can’t even prepare the drawings and even their engineering drawings that they have to hire an architecture graduate to prepare it for them. CEs should stop offering services that they are not capable of performing.
Filipinos CEs are not imaginative to implement their structural codes, correct rebar splices, etc during building construction. They are not even capable of preparing rebar splice details and 3D drawings so that construction workers will have proper guidelines during construction work. So you would often notice a very big number of construction projects being constructed with no proper rebar placement and incorrect rebar splice locations due to incompetent and negligent CE contractors who are not capable of preparing detailed drawings and implementing their own structural codes. The result are huge numbers of substandard construction projects in the Philippines and proliferation of equally incompetent foremen and workers who were not corrected and didn’t learn from their CE supervisors. You would notice these mostly in the provinces wherein a provincial CE practitioner is so incompetent that they are the ones being given lectures by the foremen instead of the other way around. Philippine provincial CEs are either negligent or afraid of bully construction workers. Provincial foremen and workers have become bullies because they are used to having CE supervisors and bosses who are afraid of them, don’t give lectures and correct them so they believe what they are doing are correct and accepted. CEs think that no one notices these however they are wrong.
That is not the case with the triple AAA construction companies though which are capable of hiring many architects to prepare the detailed architecture, engineering and 3d drawings.